Re: Complaint - Lt. CC - Dust2 Only

[Andrew`]

Re-read the post since I edited it meanwhile (in case there's sth you want to discuss about it).

Imho it's not really downgrading people's opinion. People are responsible of what they post in the forum anyway so if they want to trashtalk about people's English level, like Red Wolf did in this particular topic, then they are free to do it. But they are responsible of it and they have to assume its consequences like said in the Forum Terms & Conditions that everybody is supposed to have read : "You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages". By only reading his post, you can perfectly see the dramatic nature of it. But this kind of posts don't get directly moved to the drama corner since it can either be taken as a simple joke or it can lead to viral situations like this one. So we cannot make the difference if we don't see what happens next.

If people want to say something negative about the community or about a staff member in particular they are also free to do it but only in the Complaints Section. If somebody trashtalks about the community anywhere but not in these boards then his post will definitely be moved to the drama corner and he may face heavy consequences (from a warning to a ban, depends on what he said of course).

Now, except these 2 situations, I don't believe that any topic has been split and moved to the drama corner yet this year (except Maliken's ones about his community).

People are people. We are all responsible for our posts, but this does not prove anything, almost every single one of us has crossed the line one way or another, created an arguement, but as long as a Staff member finds it drama, let us move it here and make fun of it(it has happened plenty of times, check 2016 section). I still find it downgrading, it still messes with the freedom of speech, makes one's opinion look stupid and totally unwanted, but that's just my point of view. There is a warning system, and we can always try help and teach members the hard way, we're not Staff to have things easily moved. We're not babysitters of course, but they're not babies either, they have an opinion and we all have our angry moments, one should be informed his post has crossed the line, but not moved to the "circus" board. Anyway, let's leave it, I give up, if this helps solve this.

Regards.

[Pringles]

It's either we delete/remove the dramatic posts and we punish its posters if needed or we split the concerned topics and move the dramatic posts to the drama corner.

Each system has its advantages and its downsides but the current one is less chaotic as it doesn't restrict freedom of speech as I said previously. You can read this post and this one in case you are interested.

[Maki]

Drama corner, I like literally expected it. Here's how it goes, and why nobody ever learns here.  Every time someone does anything even remotely past the line, it gets quickly and swiftly moved, nobody has a backbone and is able to argue or defend themselves, it's hilarious because it's not the first time someone from the Staff team (under its current iteration) fucks up by bringing in false accusations, or idiotic claims that are not well researched and don't even matter.

https://www.ambrosia-servers.com/community/index.php?topic=36182.0

I'm laughing right now, or not really, because Red Wolf's trying to absolve himself by saying "Hey look here, I said "might!"", what are we in here, kindergarten? I don't care if you use "might", "maybe", "could possibly be", the moment you post an accusation, you better be prepared about the fact someone might call you out, and if you do, you simply apologize, you don't double down, you don't do an apology that really isn't one. Assume what you're saying, otherwise if you can't then you might as well not write it at all.

But I call bullshit anyway, because the first reply from Red Wolf was only passive aggressiveness, there was no doubt in his mind, it was a back handed remark and even in the case you might really not have meant it to be taken at face value, you're still talking smack about someone's education and that shit shouldn't fly, I don't give a shit whoever you are - the fact that you don't see anything wrong with that is mind boggling.

Talking about the drama corner, I find the freedom of speech argument laughable because a) you're not forced to give a platform to people, which is evidenced by the fact that you still mute, warn and ban people and b) you're disguising your removals as freedom of speech. You're basically removing the posts from all of their context and moving it to a board that nobody cares about and where it doesn't matter anymore. The posts lose their meaning, so who cares about this 'freedom of speech' that you offer - you might as well remove them, issue warnings, moderate like you're supposed to do,  then again moderation isn't just 'handing out warnings', there's ways to solve situations without having to rely on your tools. The fact that you immediately jumped the gun on 'it's either we move it here or we warn and mute users' is worrying but not something I specifically care about to get into at the moment.

And I'm not going to tell you to be professional and stuff, ultimately this is a gaming community but the sheer lack of incompetence from some of you is a disappointment. I don't post here often, nor do I really play on the servers, but the sheer amount of promises I've seen that weren't accomplished, the recurrent mistakes from some members of the Staff and the lack of actual movement makes me wonder just how this community actually got better ever since every other 'Emperor' (which is a bullshit title btw) got the boot and I'm just pretty sure it didn't - I'm not sure whether it got worse, but what I do know is that it never really got better. Still a ton of delays on everything, still a high turnover in Staff members, still inactivity in the Staff team (honestly, even if your duty's not to be active on the forums, it doesn't mean you shouldn't show your face ever).

/rant. Fancy stuff you've got going on here, I'll give props for the ones that are still willing to hang out and help running whatever is left from it, but it just seems like the community's bleeding out from every side.

Good night.

[Pringles]

Keep in mind that I'm not managing this community but simply moderating its forum and applying what the management team has established.

As you surely know, I was a moderator in .eu and I'm now a moderator in .com. I have always tried to respect what the management team has wanted me to do and have always stuck to the Rules / Terms & Conditions.

In .eu, Popay, the Head Forum Moderator (the one who accepted my FM application), was very strict. Therefore, I was very strict as well since that's the example he was giving and the way he wanted us to moderate this forum (Emperors weren't there to guide us unfortunately). I used to delete a lot of posts (spam, drama, etc.) and warn people (verbally or not) regarding their mistakes. But I have always stuck to the Rules / Terms and Conditions. We weren't strict because of our personality but because that's how the moderation system was at that time. That's exactly how we had to act in order to moderate the forum with the system we were provided and the moderators who were less strict (Ray) were just not doing their job properly.

But Ambrosia was taken over and Popay left.

So in the current forum (.com) I'm just doing what @Ed and @RoNi have told me to do. When they took over this place, they wanted to change the mentality of the forum and make it a more enjoyable place. As you can see, we are being more lenient and I haven't warned anyone yet (except Red Mist after several verbal warnings) and people are able to say whatever they want. We don't judge a post by its quality anymore (spam/memes) like we used to do in the past but by its drama and ethical levels. But it is not always possible to predict the intentions of a post and that's why we don't jump to conclusions and wait to see the rest of the replies before making the right choice.
So let me make this clear for you. Let's take 2 similar situations as an example.

1) For example, let's say that Red Wolf made the exact same post and then @alli replies to him and says "Sorry my English isn't very good, I apologize" and nobody except alli says something about Red Wolf's post. If this happened, I wouldn't even have noticed that Red Wolf's post could lead to a dramatic situation like this one and I would have simply left the posts in their place.

2) The topic that you are  reading right now.  You were the first one to reply to Red Wolf's post in a very negative way and you kept replying again and again (some other random people did even join the discussion since people love drama after all) and that kept increasing the drama level of the whole topic that was, in case you forgot it, a complaint about Lt. CC. So yeah, if we were in .eu, I would have personally deleted the replies immediately and you would have surely been warned (verbally or not) for spamming and going off-topic (thus increasing the drama level of the post and topic). But we are not in .eu and we are moderating this forum differently.

Therefore, in order to keep the real subject of the topic, to be more lenient with members and not to censor their posts (and thus restricting their freedom of speech), we have come up with this. The only way that we have figured out in order to respect these 3 conditions is to split the topic and move its irrelevant dramatic content to this corner. So yeah, you can feel upset about it and cry as much as you want. But keep in mind that, as stated in the Terms & Conditions, you are responsible of the content of your posts. You have taken the decision to increase the drama level of a post, which wasn't even necessary after all since this didn't even concern you at all to begin with and you simply pay for its consequences. If you somehow felt upset by Red Wolf's post, you could have simply made a complaint about it in the Complaints Section and I can assure you that we would have been more professional about it. I didn't know that the forum was that hard to browse to be honest.

Anyway, I won't bother to argue about it anymore. Just wait for @Ed or @RoNi since they will probably reply as soon as they see this topic, specially when they read this part of your reply : "I'll give props for the ones that are still willing to hang out and help running whatever is left from it", 10/10 quality provocation.

Cheers.

[Andrew`]

https://www.ambrosia-servers.com/community/index.php?topic=36182.0

LOL, wth, I swear I never even saw that arguement, but honestly, not surprised by the ex-staff/staff wannabes that put their nose on everything they see to show their IQ, this is who we are, this is the gaming atmosphere of the 21st century.

Anyway, this is getting out of hand, move this to Dra.. oh wait.. lock this.

[Maki]

"Provocation" ? I'm directly aiming this comment at the fact that Ambrosia a few years ago had fairly successful servers, which are reduced to only one or two now - it's a fact that the community between a few years ago and now has died out in comparison, apparently speaking out to what's actually going on is now provocation.

Also, because I'm honestly not going to bother replying to everything: I'm not here for a history class, I've  been here for a long time as well now, have gone through multiple phases of moderation and know how moderation was done, the strict and lenient times. I don't care about that.

So in the current forum (.com) I'm just doing what @Ed and @RoNi have told me to do. When they took over this place, they wanted to change the mentality of the forum and make it a more enjoyable place. As you can see, we are being more lenient and I haven't warned anyone yet (except Red Mist after several verbal warnings) and people are able to say whatever they want. We don't judge a post by its quality anymore (spam/memes) like we used to do in the past but by its drama and ethical levels. But it is not always possible to predict the intentions of a post and that's why we don't jump to conclusions and wait to see the rest of the replies before making the right choice.

Rather than "not always possible", you're rarely if ever going to be able to properly judge someone's intentions, in your own post, you misjudged my intentions, and Andrew (if his post was aimed at me) did so too. What do I care about proving my intelligence to people I rarely if ever talk to? The only reason I lurk those forums is because I have some free time, the only reason I replied is because a Staff member stepped out of line. Nothing less, nothing more. I come back later and see everything that happened was undermined by a silly split to a section called "Drama Corner", lol..

Anyway, I'm not asking you to judge by quality, I'm asking you to enforce the rules and stop relying on some bogus reason such as "freedom of speech" and move posts to a section that quite frankly makes no sense. If anything, it's not the first time I voice out my opinion against it, and I'm not the first one to do so - there's been those complaints ever since it was created.

To wrap it up: It's insane how you keep not only undermining people's posts by claiming it's all caused by the fact they love drama, but also how you turn a blind eye to your fellow staff members' posting behavior (while highlighting other people's posts) - I shouldn't have to post a Staff Complaint for you to realize that seeing how it's a public post you had access to, and if I want to write a retort then I will. For what it's worth, I completely assume everything I ever write, so you don't need to repeat yourself on Terms & Conditions. Also make no mistake: I've paid no consequences, if not the one where I wasted my time replying here because quite frankly, it's not and never will be worth my time.

LOL, wth, I swear I never even saw that arguement, but honestly, not surprised by the ex-staff/staff wannabes that put their nose on everything they see to show their IQ, this is who we are, this is the gaming atmosphere of the 21st century.

Anyway, this is getting out of hand, move this to Dra.. oh wait.. lock this.

I see no staff wannabe commenting here, and I don't consider myself an ex-Staff because I barely even stayed here, nor did I even make any statement regarding my stay. I don't see where you're getting at.

[Ed]

QQ much about topic being split to drama corner? I believe you don't understand fully why this board is here. Even though Red Wolfs post was unnecessary and irrelevant, you single-handled turned the whole topic from report to CC to your petty fight about why Red wolfs post was crap. We could of warned you for going offtopic, yet we wouldn't of warned Red Wolf, as he was still on topic. This "split topic" - "move to drama" bs is for your own safety and our pleasure. IF you got nothing better to do than argue about something irrelevant as that, then go for it, but don't trash the whole bloody topic! Quite rightfully so, if I made a report I wouldn't want some idiots to turn the topic to a fight about something completely else, or would I? Think about that one for a second before crying about splitting topics. I am sure you will pick on me using word "crying" but thats what I see.

This board, yet made in humor, is taken as seriously as any from our point of view and we will treat it just the same way as in other places, but the only exception is we wont lock the topics here.
If you find that topic moved here is downgrading and demeaning, perhaps maybe in future you will avoid creating a silly fight. If you wish to continue, you can go for it, but I won't respond to silly, idiotic fights which you started and expect me to take seriously anything else you say.

[Red Wolf]

My reply was based somewhere.
The amount of players pretending to be banned by their siblings, or people using their age as an excuse for their skills, which by the qay does not matter at all (as I could probably rekt Ed or Shark when I was 10-12 years old).
Nor did I insult his english level (or intend to) as I know wery well that nobody has a perfect english. Based on this and on the SS I sent above I made my reply. I did not ask alli to prove me wrong neither. If staff would've asked for his age, then he could have proven it to them on private (probably the same way as queen's unban request was).

Yet you replying with such a shitty negative and offensive attitude pissed me off, If you, alli or groetnje feel insulted by me or any staff member you can still report me instead of writting nonsense post.

You or alli could have easily reported me, you still can, and the popularity of the servers has nothing (probably just a very bit) to do with this.

Unless like you, I managed to justify myself.

Tbh i wont even bother to read all of the replies that will be made as this topic is going in multiple ways.

[Andrew`]

Maki, if you read my posts carefully, you'll realise I agree with you on most points, my posts were not aimed at you.

[Rawrplus]

QQ much about topic being split to drama corner? I believe you don't understand fully why this board is here. Even though Red Wolfs post was unnecessary and irrelevant, you single-handled turned the whole topic from report to CC to your petty fight about why Red wolfs post was crap. We could of warned you for going offtopic, yet we wouldn't of warned Red Wolf, as he was still on topic. This "split topic" - "move to drama" bs is for your own safety and our pleasure. IF you got nothing better to do than argue about something irrelevant as that, then go for it, but don't trash the whole bloody topic! Quite rightfully so, if I made a report I wouldn't want some idiots to turn the topic to a fight about something completely else, or would I? Think about that one for a second before crying about splitting topics. I am sure you will pick on me using word "crying" but thats what I see.

This board, yet made in humor, is taken as seriously as any from our point of view and we will treat it just the same way as in other places, but the only exception is we wont lock the topics here.
If you find that topic moved here is downgrading and demeaning, perhaps maybe in future you will avoid creating a silly fight. If you wish to continue, you can go for it, but I won't respond to silly, idiotic fights which you started and expect me to take seriously anything else you say.

This "split topic" - "move to drama" bs is for your own safety and our pleasure

what? You're protecting people from their own replies?
Thanks, my own reply could have possibly done some serious damage to my psyche, now I'm in my internet safe space protected from ill spirits of my own posts.


But in all seriousness,
Entire point of this is, that I made myself in very similar fashion, you have no right to declare something is demeaning or intolerable so much, that it's up there to create drama.  This is super subjective and it's stupid to say somebody is creating drama and somebody isn't. People have brought up some very valid points in numerous topics and it's senselessly trashed into drama corner. Say what you want for PR, but you and I both know that this section is a graveyard for posts you don't want to be taken seriously, so let's drop the act like it isn't.

I just find it extremely ironic, how much fuss there was in old Ambrosia about "censorship" and "dictatorship" when now literally anything  that could be deemed as remotely offensive, or worse yet, not even offensive but just disagreeing with someone's opinion is instantly moved to drama corner where the topic is left to die. Overall it is a shame that you out of all people, mainly because I truly believed Ambrosia is in good hands when it was handed over to you, are trying hard to push something so incredibly daft and boneheaded, when literally everyone who has half a brain this community, be it me, @Maki, @RAMBATEN , @Andrew~, @SychO , @Alves , @groentje   and even @Pringles,   who is a moderator have advised you this is a stupid idea with how things are handled here. and not everything should be moved to drama, just because someone has a different opinion. This is not democratic or whatever was supposed to be. This is just you trying to push something for no reason whatsoever, other than just to prove your point, despite all people are trying here to accomplish is the freedom of speech you so adamantly tried to put in  place after the community restart.

This is not what Ambrosia stood for and I just find it ridiculous that we have to solve something so blatantly obvious and parasitic in 2017.

[Ed]

But why do you feel that because we move it in one specific board (without trashing the entire forum up with fights and arguments), making it the absolute place where things can be argued about, disagreed upon and plain stupid. See I really don't get the whole "move to drama - let it die there". You are under impression that it doesn't matter, we move it here and therefore big "Fuck you", right? I have explained time and time again the same thing and yet when things do get moved here, do I mock people? or do I respond the same as I would if it was anywhere else. To me it doesn't matter where the topic locates, what I don't want is shitposting in topics and making them off topic, which we saw all the time 2 years ago. People complained and heck it was annoying as hell to see your topic turn into a god damn fight. Perhaps you haven't experienced that.

Splitting topics is a good way of keeping open the argument and keep it going without ruining the whole topics subject in the first place.

Would it make you happier and more at ease if this board was named "Discussion/Disagreements"? Because by the sounds of it, the name of this board is the problem, yet whenever I post in this board I do it with all seriousness and so do all of our staff. We don't joke around or give you a big F.

Can you come up with decent list of why this is such a bad idea? Or perhaps alternative, taking that what you said about the past and how it was, didn't really work well either as I mentioned earlier.

A note to this, by your logic then, Maki should be Warned/Moderated due to starting a useless fight and Red wolf warned for being useless and meaningless post? This makes sense, that's how it operated before didn't it? Oh, don't forget that the topic would get locked instantly without anyone being able to say a word again! And if they tried to post another topic to continue their debate/argument/fight etc, it would be insta locked and member warned! Just remember this next time you start doubting my intentions and integrity. At the end of the day, we are letting you express yourselves, but yet the name of the board and keeping topics tidy is the biggest issue 2016/17.

[Cocainee Vendetta]

what? You're protecting people from their own replies?
Thanks, my own reply could have possibly done some serious damage to my psyche, now I'm in my internet safe space protected from ill spirits of my own posts.


But in all seriousness,
Entire point of this is, that I made myself in very similar fashion, you have no right to declare something is demeaning or intolerable so much, that it's up there to create drama.  This is super subjective and it's stupid to say somebody is creating drama and somebody isn't. People have brought up some very valid points in numerous topics and it's senselessly trashed into drama corner. Say what you want for PR, but you and I both know that this section is a graveyard for posts you don't want to be taken seriously, so let's drop the act like it isn't.

I just find it extremely ironic, how much fuss there was in old Ambrosia about "censorship" and "dictatorship" when now literally anything  that could be deemed as remotely offensive, or worse yet, not even offensive but just disagreeing with someone's opinion is instantly moved to drama corner where the topic is left to die. Overall it is a shame that you out of all people, mainly because I truly believed Ambrosia is in good hands when it was handed over to you, are trying hard to push something so incredibly daft and boneheaded, when literally everyone who has half a brain this community, be it me, @Maki, @RAMBATEN , @Andrew~, @SychO , @Alves , @groentje   and even @Pringles,   who is a moderator have advised you this is a stupid idea with how things are handled here. and not everything should be moved to drama, just because someone has a different opinion. This is not democratic or whatever was supposed to be. This is just you trying to push something for no reason whatsoever, other than just to prove your point, despite all people are trying here to accomplish is the freedom of speech you so adamantly tried to put in  place after the community restart.

This is not what Ambrosia stood for and I just find it ridiculous that we have to solve something so blatantly obvious and parasitic in 2017.

Funny that coming from you. At your time, replies would just get deleted and warnings were issued. At least you are now free to express your opinion without actually getting it deleted. I remember, I used to spend my valuable time writing something with carefully chosen words and you or the moderators would just come and delete it.

I think this board is useful. However, the important thing is how good you are with judging what is drama and what isn't.

[GandElf The Gay]

I guess changing the name would solve half the problems..
'Discussions' would work.
It does feel disheartening if you write a serious point of view and suddenly see it ending up in 'drama'
Whatever you say but people don't take drama seriously

[Card Clasher]

What's the point of this stupid topic anyway.

Pointless af, I wanted you to post a topic and you did, now stick to the topic there's no need for this.

['PL']

I'm indifferent to this board, even if i'm inclined to join and say something about it.

But i don't know if the the derailment is heading towards why board exists, or why did red wolf said some things against a member based on his grammar?

Either way, if i'm to take those 5 years, post-ambrosia sn period, namely .com and .eu altogether, the existence of this board solves problems that predominately occurred in those years. You had a big problem of threads escaping the trajectory of discussion with focusing on individual actions to antagonize somebody out of the community(witch hunts, bandwagoning, inward protesting...  And recalling emperor's automatic incentive to instantly in any scenario remove posts and threads that colored them in a bad light, you are replacing that incentive with dumping those comments here where is publicly accessible. If you had this system back when this forum had a page per activity from different posters, nobody would complain as the majority of players were between their 10's and 20's, namely their opinion and argument would be heard and is publicly accessible for anyone to read. 

Because of that period, i don't find that big of a deal with the existence of this board only if it's used conditionally with good intentions. Those intentions are depicted by having the conversation explore multiple arguments to prove ones point or regress from continuing it; depending the weight of those arguments.

P.S:Finally a good use for split thread LUL

[Rawrplus]

Funny that coming from you. At your time, replies would just get deleted and warnings were issued. At least you are now free to express your opinion without actually getting it deleted. I remember, I used to spend my valuable time writing something with carefully chosen words and you or the moderators would just come and delete it.

I think this board is useful. However, the important thing is how good you are with judging what is drama and what isn't.

I dont remember trashing any of your topics nor instructing anyone to do so. So not sure why you're directing your message to me.

[Red Wolf]

I dont remember trashing any of your topics nor instructing anyone to do so. So not sure why you're directing your message to me.

Tbh he did not mention you specifically, but your "era".

And Id rather have my replies moved, than deleted and getting a warning. Even if you would make a request for wrong warning, and even if almost every member was supporting the guy who got warned, you still did nothing.

[Card Clasher]

May I know why the fuck is all this drama happening with my name in the topic?

[groentje]

May I know why the fuck is all this drama happening with my name in the topic?

started with red wolf talking bad bout alli's language and later the drama started, after that, the staff splitted the topic and moved it to the trash section...

[Pringles]

May I know why the fuck is all this drama happening with my name in the topic?

Let me summarize it for you.

As groentje said, they started an irrelevant argument (a.k.a drama by the majority of the community) out of something that doesn't concern your report (nor you).

Therefore, the "irrelevant argument" part was split out of the original topic and moved to this corner in order to keep the real subject of the original topic and to make it easier for its original poster and you. But some people still "cried" (definitely not using the appropriate word) about it.

The replies could have been removed and its users could have been punished for it but people would have still cried about freedom of speech and about us being too strict / making the wrong decision. That's why we moved the "irrelevant argument" replies to this board in order to let them talk as much as they want without having to punish them for it.